United Brachial Plexus Network, Inc.

Hi, this is a question that arose in my head after reading the recent epic under the "second surgery" post.

I'm not understanding why UBPN has a the no slander rule. It seems to me that UBPN is in the "getting info out to parents" business, and this business is obviously retarded by preventing people from posting negative opinions about Dr's and hospitals.

I understand that slander is only against the law if 1) it's untrue and 2) it causes financial damage to the slanderee or damages their reputation. Correct me if I'm wrong on this issue. I also understand that the slanderee has the burden of proof to prove that what was said was in fact untrue and was damaging to them. I did some very limited research and found that a few cases have been heard in the area of "message board slander." One that I read found large servers like AOL and Yahoo not responsible for slanderous posts on their boards. But found a smaller moderated board liable since they, in fact, claimed to control what was posted on their board; this case is also still in appeal.

I was wondering if it would be possible to just create some "we're not responsible" statements and warn posters that they can be prosecuted for any slanderous statements (might help to define what slanderous is).

I think this "rule" is damaging to the integrity of the board. I think people feel they cannot post negative remarks, especially about organizations who have in the past threatened legal action. I also think that if people were reminded that they CAN be prosecuted for any statement that is found to be untrue and damaging to someone, they would be more careful to post on what they KNOW is the truth and not hearsay or exaggerations.

I think many members of this board would just at an oppertunity to list the names of OB's who have injured their children. Is this against the law, or is it slander? Not if it is a true statement.

Also I don't honestly know how UBPN can uphold the "no slander" rule. Mostly because in order to be slander, the statement has to be untrue. How would UBPN know if someone's statement is untrue?

That right there seems like fairly good grounds that a moderator of a message board would not be liable for slanderous or alleged slanderous, because UBPN has pretty much NO knowledge of posters' individual experiences so how would they know if something is slander or not?

I'm afraid that we are jeoprodizing a free-speech environment by misinterpreting the definition of slander. No slander does not mean that you cannot say negative things about people. It means that you cannot say untrue things about people that would cause them damage.

Anywhoo, I was just pondering this issue and was wondering what the official reason was for this rule and how they can uphold it.

Jess,

These are good questions and believe me, they are ones that the board of directors over the years have discussed and discussed and why the board has evolved into upholding the policy that we now have.

This is not a 'free speech' board. It is moderated. An unmoderated board creates incredible problems with negativity and 'slander' has legal implications and besides that, is simply not appropriate.

I'm going to ask Ryan, our webmaster, to also respond to this post. He is much more cognizant of what happens on other boards and why they all have policies that they try very hard to uphold.

Please remember that EVERYONE who works as an officer or on the Board of Directors or in a committee is a volunteer. We are all seeking to uphold our mission and working very hard to do so. We too would appreciate your support as we seek to support you.

Our policy follows.

Nancy Birk
UBPN President
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Message Boards
Policies and Procedures

A Special Note from UBPN: The UBPN Board of Directors appreciates your use of the message boards, and would like to remind you of the following: These boards are intended to give users an opportunity to communicate with other users. The message boards have been established as a charitable gift to the general public to further our mission statement. UBPN retains the right to remove offensive material, or material that does not support our mission. UBPN is not responsible or liable for the content of any of the messages on the message board. Thank You.

Welcome to the United Brachial Plexus Network Message Boards. These boards are a service of UBPN for the direct communication of individuals seeking information and support related to brachial plexus injuries. The message boards are not moderated and the information is not endorsed or checked for accuracy by UBPN. The following guidelines should be followed when posting on the message boards.

- Slanderous or other targeted attacks aimed at individuals or institutions are not allowed.
- Courteous and respectful postings are expected from all participants.
- By posting to these boards you agree to receive communication from UBPN in reference to your post (should it be necessary) via e-mail or any other method based on information provided in your post.

If these guidelines are not followed, UBPN reserves the right to remove your post(s). Additionally, if you do not provide an e-mail address for UBPN to contact you we reserve the right to remove your post(s). This is, however, unlikely and posting anonymously is allowed. If you have any questions about whether your post violates these guidelines please email info@ubpn.org.

Nancy,

This is very well put and I hope that everyone understands how important it is to respect one another and not get into slanderous statements on this forum.

Remember, too, while some statements may not meet the legal standards of slandar, they can be hurtful and harmful.
And if someone feels the need to air some harsh words, please rememver, too, that the can be emailed to the board of directors before starting a public controversy and maybe things can be better understood in a more timely manner.

Peggy

Ooops, it was just pointed out to me that we have an inconsistency in our message board policy -- that it states that the boards are NOT moderated. That is no longer true, we do moderate, and we will change the text of the policy to reflect our actual practice.

Nancy

As a parent of an injured child, I am looking to post to these boards for support. If I post something that I have done alternative treatments or seen other doctors, I sure would not want someone slamming me or criticizing my judgement. I would hope I would be welcome with open arms. We all are doing what we feel is in the best interest of our children.

Why would we want to spend our time and energy slamming others or slandering others when we need to focus on the positive?

Now as a board member of UBPN, we are all volunteers, giving up alot of our personal time to support the mission statement and to try to help others and I sure would not want to spend the time and money in regards to slander if someone chose to sue UBPN.

Sincerely,
Tami Schenck
parent of an obpi child
UBPN Board of Directors

Ryan and others,

Thanks for the replies. Please don't feel that I'm posting to be a bug or get people irritated. This is an honest concern that I have.

Mostly because I feel that there are people in the bpi community who are "afraid" to post about bad experiences that they have had at various bpi clinics.

Now I think I've seen people say things like. "We waited too long for the doctor." "I didn't feel my questions were answered properly." "We will not be returning to Dr. ______." "I wouldn't recommend this clinic." Those are okay statements? I'm assuming because I've seen these posts on this board and they've obviously not been removed.

But if I was to say, "My son/dd had surgery by Dr. _____ and was left with worse function than before surgery." "I feel that the surgery performed by Dr. ______ was unwarranted and caused further loss of function." "Beware of ______ clinic, they have very little experience and did a bad job of my surgery." "I think _____ is a crappy doctor." Would these posts be removed?

It pains me to think, Ryan, that what you are saying is that no negative comments about surgeons, OB's, clinics would be allowed on this board.

I understand that any of us could go make our own private site but this site gets so many families dealing with this issues. I think many newcomers to this board possibly don't know that only positive comments are allowed to be posted? So they're thinking that no one ever has a negative opinion of any clinics? Considering the ramifications of this pains me. Heck, I'm sure many of us parents have been to doctors that we'd never allow to touch our children. And if someone on this site posted, "I'm seeing _____ next week." Could I stand up and say, "Well when we talked with him, he seemed fairly incompetant with regards to BPI and wanted to immediately schedule _______ procedure. I would not recommend him." Would you remove my post if I said that? Do you think that is hindering any UBPN missions?

But anyway, aside from this, I just wanted to extend my appreciation to all the volunteers at UBPN for the tremendous amount you give to make this a helpful organization to those in the bpi community. I just have this one little issue, but other than that I think you do a bang-up job!

Peace and blessings, Jess

I think the rule is warranted for more than just legal reasons. Badmouthing a Dr. or institution really does nothing to help the community. Also results of operations can vary a whole lot, and it is hard to objectively determine that Dr. error was involved. I think emotion can be heavily involved in placing the blame. Its not fair to discredit or misrepresent anyone based on something that doesn't necessarily have a clear cut answer I'd rather continue using this site as a resource for information and inteligent exchange of thought than a gossip column.

sarmstrong, First, I'll clarify myself here. I'm not talking about sitting around and saying the Dr. _____ socks didn't match his shirt. I'm not talking about starting little bickering matches about who's bigger and who's better. I'm talking about saying, "My child did not improve after surgery and, in fact, was worse." Can you honestly say that you wouldn't want to hear this type of post? This is not gossip; it is providing information so that people can be informed before they make decisions.

Aren't many of us in the boat in the first place because of a dr's mistake? Would we have reconsidered our choice of OB's had we known they had made many mistakes in the past?

I understand that one's outcomes from treatment can differ. But if many parents start posting about bad outcomes from a particular clinic, then that would be reason for people to become alarmed. Heck if I heard 1 bad thing about my physician I'd surely be checking it out. And what a better place then this board where you can actually talk with a parent and see if they are possibly just the whatever small % that doesn't do well or if the clinic is actually doing something wrong.

I'm not looking for permission from the Board to badmouth dr's or institutions. I'm looking for a way for people to feel free to express their concerns and worries about particular treatment or doctor.

I agree that it is not fair to discredit or misrepresent anyone based on some emotionally biased opinion, but I just think that the information should be put out there for intelligent people to use their own judgements on. I don't think this site can be a valid source of the bpi public's personal feelings on dr's and clinics if only the positive experiences are allowed to be posted.

But possibly UBPN has no intention of this board being a place where people can gain valid information on people's personal experiences. I'm not sure what the official mission of the message board is. But I'd bet that many people decide from reading posts which clinics they'll choose to take their babies to. Should the info on this board be their only reason for making that choice, definately NOT, but what other information is out there so readily? I just feel that if people are going to use this board to make decisions about which clinics and doctors are "best" then they should be informed that it is a moderated board and that negative posts regarding physicans or other professions are not allowed.