SPANKING?

[Joy in FL]

I know this will most likely get deleted but I hope before it does you have a chance to read my reply Non-spanking Mom. Feel free to email me privately if you wish to carry on this converstation.

I am an outstanding parent. I am not nor was I ever a lazy or to busy parent. Verbal discipline is not always effective. A swat on the butt often times gives strength to your "verbal discipline". Your comment leaves the impression that those of us that spanked our children are unfit parents. Nothing gets me fired up quicker than a judgemental person that knows NOTHING about how a person really parents.

Your trite and rude comment to the orginal poster was uncalled for. She was reaching out for suggestions for a problem. An issue that she is obviously struggling with. Give her credit for reaching out for ideas.

Did it creep up on her? I don't know, you don't know. Things do creep up on us. Perhaps there are other issues in her life that she felt were the reason her son was acting out. All I know is Thank God she is seeing a problem when he is 2 and trying to take care of it. Does not seem like a "lazy/busy parent" to me. Sounds like one that is devoted, loving, and truly concerned about the child she is raising.

Let me also say give you a little background on me... I worked hotline for a women's shelter that served victims of domestic violence and sexual assault; I was a volunteer and later became a paid employee... I was a legal advocate for children... I have lobbied for changes in our laws that protect those that are abused...I have an extensive background working with women and children that are vicitms of a beating. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, is even remotely the same between a beating and a spanking!

[Mandie]

> Spanking is the reserved right for parents that are
> too lazy or worse too busy to be consistent in verbal
> discipline from the very beginning. You write that
> this problem just creeped up on us, I doubt it. You
> weren't paying attention.

What makes you an expert on other peoples children and parenting habits? I would like to see your doctoral degree.
Coming on a board (hiding i might say) that others come to for help and being so rude shows a lot about your character.

[brandonsmom]

It sure does Mandie and Joy, when I first read it I thought the same thing, but thought that I was overreacting. I have four children and have no time to be a lazy parent. I think alot of our problems in society are being brought on by parents that don't discipline and refuse to accept and discipline their children. I work for a social service agency and know that if some of these children were disciplined from little on, they wouldn't have the problems that they are having. IE JUVENILE DETENTION CENTERS at 9 and 10 years old......GRRRRRR GAYLE

[Mandie]

To me a lazy parent is one who allows their child to misbehave and step all over people.

[hope16_05]

To the original poster, dont worry your child will be fine! I think at times we need something more to show it is not ok.
I was spanked as a child and I am just fine. I know right from wrong very well. I had a baby sitter (who obviously could not spank me she was a family friend, not a relative) anyweay she used the time out method, yea that never worked for me from the day that I got a time out for singing bad boys, the theme song to cops. I still laugh about that. That time out has taught me nothing. A spanking on the other hand has taught me what was right and what was not.

Your child was probably just shocked (his heart was probably not broken) But I bet he learned a lesson.


And to the poster that said this:
> Spanking is the reserved right for parents that are
> too lazy or worse too busy to be consistent in verbal
> discipline from the very beginning. You write that
> this problem just creeped up on us, I doubt it. You
> weren't paying attention.

you are so wrong!!! My parents are not lazy nor were they too busy but they did use spanking as a form of discipline. Verbal warnings are just not enough sometimes. Spanking probably saved my little cousins life. He would often go run to the middle of a well traveled road and sit and play. This was just after a hill so an oncoming car would not be able to see him in time to stop. So not safe! He got a good spanking and never did that again. He had been verbally disciplined a lot for this behavior but nothing ever sank in. The spanking got his attention and that sank in.

And behaviors can just creep up, something that happened at school or the baby sitters that day may have triggered a reaction. You don't know! So to tell another parent that they were not paying attention when you clearly do not know the parent is not very nice.

No I dont have kids of my own but I am not that old and remember my childhood very well and am speaking from that experience!
Amy 19 ROBPI from MN
hope16_05@hotmail.com

[admin]

One question for the spankers here, if one of your children hits another child, how would you punish that? If not by a spank, why not?
It was once I had more than one child and the older one would spank the young one I realised it was ridiculous-I want the message that hitting is wrong and I'm not going to give that message by hitting. My child was modelling my behaviour. I respect the fact that some parents hit, I used to do it myself, but I am no longer doing it. My children listen to me fine, but I do admit the time out thing takes more time and effort. I think it's worth it and my kids haven't been in time out for months. They also tell other kids that hitting is wrong!

[admin]

All authorites, major universities, hospitals and medical research institutes, agree UNIVERSALLY that spanking is now viewed as the worse choice for a child of any age. Yet they also recognize that this problem is practically persistent among isolated areas in this country.

1.)
Guest
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 7, 2006 7:10 PM Reply

You actually think that your child has commited a crime. A crime of what?: “We do it when the other forms of discipline are not working and the crime committed warrants it.”

And you are not only exaggerating in your sense of a crime, but you are exaggerating the follow-up: ”We always follow spankings with hugs and kisses, love and gentle reminders of why the child received it - and they know exactly why and almost universally agree that they deserved it!”

2.)
Guest
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 7, 2006 10:17 PM Reply

You are exactly right! In most states an assault means “any unwanted touch/contact” between adults. But the child does not have the voice to object to the unwanted touch of a spanking. If your neighbor hit you with the same level of force in a typical spanking, you would call the police. But the child is submitted to that level assault all to frequently, and all too privately.

And your statement – “the top ten states for paddling are also the top ten states for lynching” is actually a matter of great substance in child abuse research where so much occurs in the America South that is still dominanted by a security in exploitation, derived from and encouraged by that history in slavery and the Baptist faith.

Yet, I disagree: “We have a right and a duty to parent as we see fit, but like every other thing we decide to do,..” No, you do not. Even in the privacy of your home, no one has the right to inflict any level of intended painor injury; extended isolation; verbally abusive langauge on any child.

3.)
3sweetiepies
Posts: 15
Registered: 1/2/06
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 8, 2006 1:24 AM Reply

"There never was a time when a major social problem was solved by beating a child. And there never will be such a time... For centuries adults have injured children and have lied about it, and other adults have heard those lies and then merely turned away... we must begin putting the blame where it belongs." This is an excerpt from the website you posted... I could not agree more. I do, however believe that there is a distinct difference between beating a child and spanking a child. We spank in our home as a last resort. We try other methods first because we do not like to spank, but when you have exhausted all of your "creative" forms of punishment, and the behavior continues, then something more severe needs to be done.’

Exhausted is the key word here. When you as a family have exhausted your resources, you need to consult with your school, your pediatrician, or a family therapist to understand why you feel so exhausted. The resources are there, you should seek them.


4.)
Joy in FL
Posts: 279
From: St. Cloud, Florida
Registered: 11/5/01
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 8, 2006 1:35 AM Reply


(Facetious): Well all I can say is that I don’t like the way you are behaving and writing, and I think that I want to strengthen my agrument by giving you a “swat on the butt” – you’d run to the police.. Can’t you see that your reasoning is so wrong?

And please do not use God in such vanity as your excuse: Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would approve of spanking a TWO YEAR OLD? Here’s another picture, the Bless Virgin spanking Christ. It never happened. There is no biblical record of Mary ever spanking or hitting Christ. Mary was always very tolerant.

5.)
Mandie
Posts: 296
From: Louisiana
Registered: 5/21/02
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 8, 2006 3:29 AM Reply

“What makes you an expert on other peoples children and parenting habits? I would like to see your doctoral degree.” Our character, our source of objection and our function in life is very strong, we would just rather isolate the criticism to this forum.

6.)
brandonsmom
Posts: 676
From: Zion, Illinois
Registered: 11/22/04
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 8, 2006 11:53 AM Reply

Got your first name, and the town where you live. I think some notice to your employer as endorsing corporeal punishment and thinking so little of their parents may be important. And also we sense that you think that maybe some of those kids shouldn’t actually be in the Detention Center. What are you doing to advocate for those kids..

7.)
Mandie
Posts: 296
From: Louisiana
Registered: 5/21/02
Re: SPANKING?
Posted: Jun 8, 2006 2:35 PM Reply

“To me a lazy parent is one who allows their child to misbehave and step all over people.” You are right.

[Joy in FL]

> All authorites, major universities, hospitals and
> medical research institutes, agree UNIVERSALLY that
> spanking is now viewed as the worse choice for a
> child of any age. Yet they also recognize that this
> problem is practically persistent among isolated
> areas in this country. (Facetious): Well all I can say >is that I don’t like the way you are behaving and >writing, and I think that I want to strengthen my >grument by giving you a “swat on the butt” – you’d run to >the police.. Can’t you see that your reasoning is so >wrong?

>And please do not use God in such vanity as your excuse: >Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would approve of >spanking a TWO YEAR OLD? Here’s another picture, the >Bless Virgin spanking Christ. It never happened. There is >no biblical record of Mary ever spanking or hitting >Christ. Mary was always very tolerant.


"All" I assume by authorites you refer to law enforcement. We can't get law enforcement to agree on things from county to county or state to state. Major universities are still debating which football team is really the best! Medical research institutions are trying to cure cancer. I don't think the issue of spanking is high on their list.

But, if you want to go with your experts, okay. Are these the same authorites that will not put together a nationwide resgistery of people who have committed sexual crimes? Are these the same authorities that years ago would take a man for a walk around the block to cool off. While his wife was given a lecture on how to be a good wife and not make her husband so angry?

Oh and no the medical industry has never put out any thing that would harm the American public! So yeah we should really jump on their band wagon of truth!

What? I thought I was speaking your language... rude, trite. Did I mention rude? There is a difference between a parent spanking a child and an adult spanking an adult. You are not my parent. No, I would not run to the police for a swat on the butt. :rolls eyes: Would we throw down? Maybe! Depends on how that swat was meant!

Oh goody, oh goody!::clapping hands and jumping up and down:: You want to play the Bible game! I LOVE when people go there. My Baptist upbringing really comes in handy. Well, that and my faith! Okay, go get your Bibles cause you know you will be checking up on my facts. I will wait. :::whistling, sing a little hymn, takes a drink of Dr. Pepper::: Back? Okay let us begin!

"He that spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes(early)." Proverbs 13:24.

I am thinking early means in age not early in the morning.

"Withold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Proverbs 23:13.

Spanking will not kill them. No matter what your children tell you! Now, before you say anything... spanking will not kill them. I am painfully aware of the statistic of children being killed by abuse. So to answer your question, not sure about Jesus and his views on spanking. However, I feel that His Father was an advocate for it.

I have to admit your "another picture" made me giggle. Mostly because, yeah I bet she did! I bet she even tugged on his ear a time or two. Smacked his hand away from the cookie jar. Made him take the frogs out of his robe before he could sit down for dinner. I would imagine she made him make play nice with the neighborhood kids. Any of this in the Bible? Don't know for sure but I do not believe so. There is actually very little of their day to day life. So it would be hard for me to, say yes she did. Just as hard for you to say, no she did not.

We have gotten way off track and into our own little deal here. Which like I said I am more than willing to continue in private. I will even give you my "bosses" name, address and phone number so you can call and tell him what a horrible person I am.

[admin]

Spanking actually is high on the list of many academics, because in many countries it is being debated whether to allow it to continue. In countries where it is no longer allowed, violent crimes by the young have decreased. No study has yet found spanking to be of any long term benefit in behaviour management. It has however been found to cause problems in children and increases the chances of them becoming violent themselves. .
The bible quotations that have been provided are from the Old Testament. I am Christian and follow the teachings of Christ, who never advocated smacking. I find it irritating that Christianity is being used here to advocate violence against children. Most arguments in favor of spanking are not very robust.

Spanking argument #1 - “Spanking is an effective way to manage behavior”

Hitting a small child will usually stop misbehavior. However, other ways of discipline such as verbal correction, reasoning, and time-out work as well and do not have the potential for harm that hitting does. Hitting children may actually increase misbehavior. One large study showed that the more parents spanked children for antisocial behavior, the more the antisocial behavior increased (Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997). The more children are hit, the more likely they are to hit others including peers and siblings and, as adults, they are more likely to hit their spouses (Straus and Gelles, 1990; Wolfe, 1987). Hitting children teaches them that it is acceptable to hit others who are smaller and weaker. “I'm going to hit you because you hit your sister” is a hypocrisy not lost on children.

Spanking argument #2 - “I got hit when I was a kid and I turned out OK”

Being spanked is an emotional event. Adults often remember with crystal clarity times they were paddled or spanked as children. Many adults look back on corporal punishment in childhood with great anger and sadness. Sometimes people say, “I was spanked as a child, and I deserved it”. It is hard for us to believe that people who loved us would intentionally hurt us. We feel the need to excuse that hurt. Studies show that even a few instances of being hit as children are associated with more depressive symptoms as adults (Strauss, 1994, Strassberg, Dodge, Pettit & Bates, 1994). A landmark meta-analysis of 88 corporal punishment research studies of over six decades showed that corporal punishment of children was associated with negative outcomes including increased delinquent and antisocial behavior, increased risk of child abuse and spousal abuse, increased risk of child aggression and adult aggression, decreased child mental health and decreased adult mental health (Gershoff, 2002). While most of us who were spanked “turned out OK”, it is likely that not being spanked would have helped us turn out to be healthier.

Spanking Argument #3 - “If we don't spank children, they'll grow up rotten”

Children in seventeen countries (2005) are growing up without being hit in homes, in daycare or in schools. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Finland and other countries that have banned corporal punishment of children in general have low rates of interpersonal violence compared to the United States. Critics predicted that Swedish youth would grow up more unruly after parents stopped spanking because of the l979 corporal punishment ban. Dr. Joan Durrant who studied effects of the ban for l5 years reported that this did not happen. Her studies indicate youth did not become more unruly, under socialized or self-destructive following the ban. In fact, she said most measures demonstrated a substantial improvement in youth well-being (Durrant, 2000). Professor Adrienne Haeuser who studied these educational laws in Europe in 1981 and 1991 said “Children are receiving more discipline since the law in Sweden passed. Parents think twice and tend to rely more on verbal conflict resolution to manage their children”. Discipline is important. Discipline means “to teach”. We need more discipline of children such as explaining and reasoning, establishing rules and consequences, praising good behavior in children and being good models for or children. Such methods develop a child's conscience and self-control. Children who experience teaching discipline are less likely to misbehave and more likely to become self-disciplined adults.

Spanking Argument #4 - “The bible says 'Spare the rod and spoil the child' and I must obey God”

Spanking is deeply rooted in the history and culture of the United States. The bible is often used to support, even perhaps to require, that parents use corporal punishment on children. Many clergy today are speaking out against that interpretation of scripture. The Reverend Dr. Thomas E. Sagendorf, retired Methodist Minister, says the following “I can find no sanction in the teaching of Jesus or the witness of the New Testament to encourage the practice of corporal punishment at home, school or anywhere else. A number of popular voices take a different view, often quoting Old Testament scriptures to prove their point. Those who subscribe to this argument misunderstand and misuse scripture. A similar method of selective reading could just as well be used to justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy, incest and infanticide”. At its General Conference in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in April and May, 2004, the United Methodist Church passed two resolutions against corporal punishment in homes, schools and child-care. The United Methodist Church is the second largest Protestant denomination in the United States.

Conclusion

Look at the facts. Accumulated research supports the ineffectiveness and harm of corporal punishment. Children who are spanked most are more likely to be aggressive and hit others. Children hit for antisocial behaviors are more likely to increase those misbehaviors. Hitting children teaches acceptance of violence. While most of us who were spanked as children grow up to be healthy adults, spanking caused anxiety, contributed to feelings of helplessness and humiliation, and often provoked anger and a desire for revenge, feelings which have usually been repressed in adulthood but may lead to depression, adult violence, and hitting our own children. Effective discipline exists. It does not involve hitting and humiliating children.

References and Resources

Durrant, Joan E. (2000). “Trends in Youth Crime and Well-Being Since the Abolition of Corporal Punishment in Sweden”, Youth and Society. Youth and Society, Volume 31, 437-455.

Gershoff, Elizabeth (2002) “Corporal Punishment by Parents and Associated Child Behaviors and Experiences: A Meta-Analytic and Theoretical Review”, Psychological Bulletin 2002. Vol. 128, No. 4 539-579. American Psychological Association.

Greven, Philip. (1992). Spare the Rod: The religious roots of punishment and the psychological impact of physical abuse. Vintage Books.

Miller, Alice. (1990) For your own good: Hidden cruelty in child-rearing and roots of violence. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, LLC.

Straus, M.A., Sugarman, D.B., & Giles-Sims (1997). “Corporal punishment by parents and subsequent antisocial behavior in children”. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 155, 761-767.

Straus, M.A., & Gelles, R.J. (Eds.). (1990) “Physical violence in American families: Risk factors and adaptions to violence in 8,145 families”. New Brunswick, NJ: Transactions.

Straus, M.A. (1994). Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families. San Francisco, CA: New Lexington Press.

Strassberg, Z., Dodge, K.A., Pettit, G.S., & Bates, J.E. (1994). “Spanking in families and subsequent aggressive behavior toward peers by kindergarten students”. Development and Psychopathology, 6, 445-461.

Wolfe, D.A. (1987). Child abuse: Implications for child development and psychopathology . Newbury Park, CA: Sage

Author: Nadine Block, Director of the Center for Effective Discipline and co-chair of EPOCH-USA July 2005.

[richinma2005]

Great arguments and mostly respectful, however, not really in the interest of the community that uses these boards. This thread is being locked.